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does islam support forced conversions??

topic posted Fri, September 15, 2006 - 7:37 AM by  Unsubscribed
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some say yes and some say no.

what does the koran say??
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  • Harmen
    Harmen
    offline 110

    Re: does islam support forced conversions??

    Fri, September 15, 2006 - 11:05 AM
    Thank you Halla for posting this.

    Thank you Google.

    Thank you Wikipedia.
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    • Harmen
      Harmen
      offline 110

      Re: does islam support forced conversions??

      Fri, September 15, 2006 - 12:07 PM
      mudeer.wordpress.com/
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      • Harmen
        Harmen
        offline 110

        Re: does islam support forced conversions??

        Sat, September 16, 2006 - 2:17 AM
        Christianity answers back

        www.answering-islam.org/Intro/...on.html
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        • Harmen
          Harmen
          offline 110

          Re: does islam support forced conversions??

          Sun, September 17, 2006 - 3:48 AM
          From this article:

          In Islam, the written Arabic Book is the marvel;
          in Christianity, the Person of Christ is the true miracle!

          That is true.

          But there is nuance.

          I was raised a protestant.

          For protestants the written Bible is the marvel.

          For Catholics, the Person of Christ (and Mary) is the true miracle!
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          • J-Red
            J-Red
            offline 16

            Re: does islam support forced conversions??

            Sun, September 17, 2006 - 4:49 AM
            Probably the only logical thing you've ever said Harmen... lol
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            • Unsu...
               

              Re: does islam support forced conversions??

              Sun, September 17, 2006 - 8:00 AM
              Funny how Eric doesn't attack you for your constant attacks on Harmen. I guess it is not so much the attacks he minds, so long as they are not about him.
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                Re: does islam support forced conversions??

                Sun, September 17, 2006 - 9:48 AM
                Juanita,

                Do you think you're a victim of my observation?
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                • Unsu...
                   

                  Re: does islam support forced conversions??

                  Sun, September 17, 2006 - 12:22 PM
                  No, unlike some, I don't consider myself a victim at all. But then, you made so many 'observations' regarding me, it is not clear which particular one you had in mind.

                  I have long since stopped worrying about what others think of me or living my life via popularity polls. I am not afraid to step on toes if they are sticking out pointedly and need stepping on. I have strong opinions. There is nothing wrong with that unless those opinions are wrong. If my opinions or facts are wrong by all means point them out. But do yourself the favor of not trying to put others on the couch, it makes you look ridiculous.

                  None of us here have come to you for help with our psychological problems. Continue working on your psych degree and then wait for the patients to come to you seeking your help.
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                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
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                    Re: does islam support forced conversions??

                    Sun, September 17, 2006 - 1:24 PM
                    Juanita,

                    I'm glad that you don't care about what people think about you. I share that approach. My question is this, by stepping on toes is your intent to raise awareness or is it to dismiss? There is a big distinction. If you don't mind stepping on toes then I'm sure you won't mind having your toes stepped on as required by others. Mine are black and blue, twisted and mangled, and I'm glad to receive your sincere observations as well as those from anyone else.

                    I am assuming that you feel that I am trying to harm you in some way, that because we don't share the same opinions I must have some kind of hidden agenda. I'm not sure if you've noticed but I haven't been critical of views as much as I have been critical of approaches and expressions of views. If you or I want to be taken seriously then we must show integrity, and we must accept responsibility for ourselves. When you show me my mistakes and make observations of my contradictions I'm going to assume that your intent is to raise my awareness. That is why I have addressed you and Halla. If someone says to you, "Do as I say not as I do" how do you feel? Accountability is what distinguishes strength from weakness.

                    Have you ever heard someone say Kill em with kindness? That is a much more effective strategy to making a point to someone than confronting. If you can remove the confrontation there is no defensiveness, accessibility is increased. Do you see where I'm going?

                    Accepting responsibility is a strength, it is a willingness to be accountable. These are qualities that enhance our experiences, our awareness, and our understandings.

                    Everyone here will agree on something and disagree on something, so we might as well create an environment that is not hostile so that we can all express our views comfortably and sincerely.

                    I'm not addressing you our of anger. When i say I feel sad I'm being sincere. When I said that I hope you have a good Shabbat and you responded in kind, I felt great, you meant it, and so did I. There is more common ground than you realize.

                    Honestly, my looking ridiculous is a given, and is the last thing I care about, it means nothing. You said earlier that you don't care what people think about you, so you know that it makes no difference.
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                    • Unsu...
                       

                      Re: does Islam support forced conversions??

                      Sun, September 17, 2006 - 6:40 PM
                      >>I am assuming that you feel that I am trying to harm you in some way, that because we don't share the same opinions I must have some kind of hidden agenda.

                      Whyever would you assume *that*? I don't know who you are Eric, just as you don't know who I am. I just 'met' you online a few weeks ago, and you are expressing your views here at the Mideast conflict forum. Initially you harassed me with the 'alt' attribute, following me around, swearing that I'm Seth or Jonny, halla whomever. You must have done that with my every post for a month.

                      If you think that that qualifies as being critical of my approach or my expressions of my approach, I don't know, as you say here: "I'm not sure if you've noticed but I haven't been critical of views as much as I have been critical of approaches and expressions of views."

                      I think it qualified as neither.

                      >>Eric said:
                      Have you ever heard someone say Kill em with kindness? That is a much more effective strategy to making a point to someone than confronting. If you can remove the confrontation there is no defensiveness, accessibility is increased. Do you see where I'm going? <<

                      Eric, I am not here to kill anyone, with kindness or with bitterness. Here you are at a MIDEAST CONFLICT tribe telling me to avoid confrontation. Eric. The Mideast CONFLICT is _ABOUT_ CONFRONTATION.
                      This argument is waaaaay past polite discussion. Calling people "racists" and "jackass" and "sicko" is the order of the day.

                      >>If you or I want to be taken seriously then we must show integrity, and we must accept responsibility for ourselves.
                      uh...okay. You seem to have a problem with my integrity. You seem to think I'm not responsible for myself, lol, though I have paid all my own bills and taxes as necessary. I wonder if you are paying yours or your mom is...? They reason I ask is because you are getting on my case and on my nerves because what I really do not want to discuss here is YOUR problems with ME. Supposedly this tribe is about the Middle East Conflict. I am discussing it, when I am not discussing what I SEE as YOUR problems.

                      I am not here to make friends with people whom I disagree with philosophically, ethically, politically or otherwise. There are plenty of people in my neighborhood whom I have to be pleasant to even though I find their point of view to be wrong. I don't have to do this online.

                      If you don't disagree with me, don't argue with me. I am much more interested in current events. Please do not go on about this. If you find me insulting I am sorry. I don't know if you are one of the ones that have called me 'racist' on this board - I imagine you have. At any rate you did not defend me against that charge. That means that you do not understand my position, and you will never understand it as long as you continue to dog my heels with this bullshit.

                      In fact, if you keep it up, I will put you on total ignore. Deal with the issues that presumably you came here to talk about: the MIddleast conflict. Get off the personality trip -- at least with me and halla. PLEASE.

                      And remember, people can change. You can change your moniker and be a different person tomorrow. So good luck and let the SHIT FLY! Don't be SAD. Life is too short.
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                      • J-Red
                        J-Red
                        offline 16

                        Re: does Islam support forced conversions??

                        Mon, September 18, 2006 - 6:14 AM
                        "I am not here to make friends with people whom I disagree with philosophically, ethically, politically or otherwise. There are plenty of people in my neighborhood whom I have to be pleasant to even though I find their point of view to be wrong. I don't have to do this online."

                        - Is this an admission that your really a weak person who hides behind the computer? You walk around all day long, scared to express your views to others in person, so when you get home you take all that balled up hate that you've accumulated around your "neighborhood" and utilize the "safety" from confrontation that the internet brings you, to finally "get even?" That statement was very revealing about your character Juanita. It shows that, (excuse my language for lack of better terms) your nothing but a "bitch" in real life who hides behind the keyboard in order to take your anger out on others without having to deal with the consequences. Very revealing...
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                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
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                    Re: does islam support forced conversions??

                    Sun, September 17, 2006 - 2:06 PM
                    Juanita,

                    Do you think my intent is to harm or hurt anyone?

                    You may not ask for my psychological help, but I am asking you to consider a similar observation, do you care about the impact of your actions? Do you only offer what people ask of you? Are you expecting something from others that you don't expect from yourself? Do you show consideration for what other people want?

                    If you don't want to be scrutinized then why do you also scrutinize?

                    You can call me a hypocrite, and you will at times be correct, but your standards must apply to yourself also.
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              • Harmen
                Harmen
                offline 110

                Re: does islam support forced conversions??

                Mon, September 18, 2006 - 4:53 AM
                Juanita,

                From Dictionary.com

                Top Web Results for "attack"
                8 results for: attack

                Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1) - Cite This Source
                at‧tack  /əˈtæk/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[uh-tak] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
                –verb (used with object)
                1. to set upon in a forceful, violent, hostile, or aggressive way, with or without a weapon; begin fighting with: He attacked him with his bare hands.
                2. to begin hostilities against; start an offensive against: to attack the enemy.
                3. to blame or abuse violently or bitterly.
                4. to direct unfavorable criticism against; criticize severely; argue with strongly: He attacked his opponent's statement.
                5. to try to destroy, esp. with verbal abuse: to attack the mayor's reputation.
                6. to set about (a task) or go to work on (a thing) vigorously: to attack housecleaning; to attack the hamburger hungrily.
                7. (of disease, destructive agencies, etc.) to begin to affect.
                –verb (used without object)
                8. to make an attack; begin hostilities.
                –noun
                9. the act of attacking; onslaught; assault.
                10. a military offensive against an enemy or enemy position.
                11. Pathology. seizure by disease or illness: an attack of indigestion.
                12. the beginning or initiating of any action; onset.
                13. an aggressive move in a performance or contest.
                14. the approach or manner of approach in beginning a musical phrase.
                [Origin: 1590–1600; earlier atta(c)que < MF atta(c)quer < It attaccare to attack, attach]

                —Related forms
                at‧tack‧a‧ble, adjective
                at‧tack‧er, noun

                —Synonyms 1. storm, charge. Attack, assail, assault, molest all mean to set upon someone forcibly, with hostile or violent intent. Attack is the most general word and applies to a beginning of hostilities, esp. those definitely planned: to attack from ambush. Assail implies vehement, sudden, and sometimes repeated attack: to assail with weapons or with gossip. Assault almost always implies bodily violence: to assault with intent to kill. To molest is to harass, to threaten, or to assault: He was safe, and where no one could molest him. 4. censure; impugn, oppugn, abuse. 9. onset, encounter.
                —Antonyms 1, 4. defend. 9. defense.
                Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1)
                Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.
                American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source
                at·tack (-tk) Pronunciation Key Audio pronunciation of "attack" [P]
                v. at·tacked, at·tack·ing, at·tacks
                v. tr.

                1. To set upon with violent force.
                2. To criticize strongly or in a hostile manner.
                3. To start work on with purpose and vigor: attack a problem.
                4. To begin to affect harmfully: a disease that attacks the central nervous system.


                v. intr.

                To make an attack; launch an assault: The enemy attacked during the night.


                n.

                1. The act or an instance of attacking; an assault.
                2. An expression of strong criticism; hostile comment: vicious attacks in all the newspapers.
                3. Sports.
                1. An offensive action in a sport or game.
                2. The players executing such an action.
                4.
                1. The initial movement in a task or undertaking: made an optimistic attack on the pile of paperwork.
                2. A method or procedure: Our attack on this project will have two phases.
                5. An episode or onset of a disease, especially an occurrence of a chronic disease: an asthma attack.
                6. The experience or beginning of a feeling, need, or desire: an attack of hunger; an attack of melancholy.
                7.
                1. Music. The beginning or manner of beginning a piece, passage, or tone.
                2. Decisiveness and clarity in artistic expression: a careful performance, but one lacking the rigorous attack the work demands.



                [French attaquer, from Old French, from Old Italian *estaccare, of Germanic origin.]
                at·tacker n.

                Synonyms: attack, bombard, assail, storm, assault, beset
                These verbs mean to set upon, physically or figuratively. Attack applies to offensive action, especially to the onset of planned aggression: The commandos attacked the outpost at dawn. Bombard suggests showering with bombs or shells (The warplanes bombarded the town) or with words (The celebrity was bombarded with invitations). Assail implies repeated attacks: Critics assailed the author's second novel. Storm refers to a sudden, sweeping attempt to achieve a victory: “After triumphantly storming the country, [the President] is obliged to storm Capitol Hill” (The Economist). Assault usually implies sudden, intense violence: Muggers often assault their victims on dark streets. Beset suggests beleaguerment from all sides: The fox was beset by hunters and hounds.


                (Download Now or Buy the Book)
                The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
                Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
                Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
                American Heritage Stedman's Medical Dictionary - Cite This Source

                at·tack (-tk)
                n.

                An episode or onset of a disease, often sudden in nature.

                at·tack v.
                The American Heritage® Stedman's Medical Dictionary
                Copyright © 2002, 2001, 1995 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company.
                Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law - Cite This Source

                Main Entry: at·tack
                Function: noun
                : an attempt to prove something invalid or incorrect esp. through judicial procedures <made an attack on the will as not properly witnessed>; specifically : an attempt to have the judgment of a court corrected or overruled
                collateral attack
                : an attack on a judgment made during or by a proceeding brought for a different purpose —see also habeas corpus ad subjiciendum at HABEAS CORPUSdirect attack
                : an attack on a judgment made in a proceeding (as an appeal) brought for the specific purpose of having the judgment corrected or overturned —attack verb
                Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law, © 1996 Merriam-Webster, Inc.
                Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary - Cite This Source

                Main Entry: 1at·tack
                Pronunciation: &-'tak
                Function: transitive verb
                : to begin to affect or to act on injuriously <tumors attacked the kidneys> <attacked by a fever>
                Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.
                Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary - Cite This Source

                Main Entry: 2attack
                Function: noun
                : a fit of sickness; especially : an active episode of a chronic or recurrent disease
                Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.
                WordNet - Cite This Source

                attack

                n 1: (military) an offensive against an enemy (using weapons); "the attack began at dawn" [syn: onslaught, onset, onrush] 2: a sudden occurrence of an uncontrollable condition; "an attack of diarrhea" 3: intense adverse criticism; "Clinton directed his fire at the Republican Party"; "the government has come under attack"; "don't give me any flak" [syn: fire, flak, flack, blast] 4: the act of attacking; "attacks on women increased last year"; "they made an attempt on his life" [syn: attempt] 5: an offensive move in a sport or game; "they won the game with a 10-hit attack in the 9th inning" 6: the onset of a corrosive or destructive process (as by a chemical agent); "the film was sensitive to attack by acids"; "open to attack by the elements" 7: ideas or actions intended to deal with a problem or situation; "his approach to every problem is to draw up a list of pros and cons"; "an attack on inflation"; "his plan of attack was misguided" [syn: approach, plan of attack] 8: a decisive manner of beginning a musical tone or phrase [syn: tone-beginning] 9: strong criticism; "he published an unexpected attack on my work" v 1: launch an attack or assault on; begin hostilities or start warfare with; "Hitler attacked Poland on September 1, 1939 and started World War II"; "Serbian forces assailed Bosnian towns all week" [syn: assail] [ant: defend] 2: attack in speech or writing; "The editors of the left-leaning paper attacked the new House Speaker" [syn: round, assail, lash out, snipe, assault] 3: take the initiative and go on the offensive; "The Serbs attacked the village at night"; "The visiting team started to attack" [syn: aggress] 4: attack someone physically or emotionally; "The mugger assaulted the woman"; "Nightmares assailed him regularly" [syn: assail, assault, set on] 5: set to work upon; turn one's energies vigorously to a task; "I attacked the problem as soon as I got out of bed" 6: begin to injure; "The cancer cells are attacking his liver"; "Rust is attacking the metal"
                WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University
                On-line Medical Dictionary - Cite This Source

                attack

                attack: in CancerWEB's On-line Medical Dictionary
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              • J-Red
                J-Red
                offline 16

                Re: does islam support forced conversions??

                Mon, September 18, 2006 - 6:03 AM
                That's an attack? I thought it was a truthful observation... and a compliment. Can you show me any other posts from Harmen that are actually logical and coherent?
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                • Harmen
                  Harmen
                  offline 110

                  Re: does islam support forced conversions??

                  Mon, September 18, 2006 - 6:42 AM
                  compliment:
                  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Back...compliment

                  coherence
                  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coherence

                  truth
                  Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

                  truth
                  9 entries found for truth.

                  Main Entry: truth
                  Pronunciation: 'trüth
                  Function: noun
                  Inflected Form(s): plural truths /'trü[th]z, 'trüths/
                  Etymology: Middle English trewthe, from Old English trEowth fidelity; akin to Old English trEowe faithful -- more at TRUE
                  1 a archaic : FIDELITY, CONSTANCY b : sincerity in action, character, and utterance
                  2 a (1) : the state of being the case : FACT (2) : the body of real things, events, and facts : ACTUALITY (3) often capitalized : a transcendent fundamental or spiritual reality b : a judgment, proposition, or idea that is true or accepted as true <truths of thermodynamics> c : the body of true statements and propositions
                  3 a : the property (as of a statement) of being in accord with fact or reality b chiefly British : TRUE 2 c : fidelity to an original or to a standard
                  4 capitalized, Christian Science : GOD
                  - in truth : in accordance with fact : ACTUALLY
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        • Harmen
          Harmen
          offline 110

          Re: does islam support forced conversions??

          Fri, September 22, 2006 - 1:27 AM
          Dutch Protestantism answers back:

          Some history:
          Iconoclasm and repression

          On Assumption of the Virgin day in 1566 a small incident outside the Antwerp cathedral started a massive iconoclastic movement by Calvinists, who stormed the churches to destroy statues and images of Catholic saints. According to the Calvinists these statues represented worship of false idols, which they (in turn) felt was heretical. Philip had lost control in the troublesome Netherlands and saw no other option than to send an army. In 1567 Fernando Álvarez de Toledo, 3rd Duke of Alba, marched into Brussels at the head of 10,000 troops.

          Alba took harsh measures, and established a special court (Raad van Beroerten or council of upheavals) to judge anyone who opposed the king. No one, not even high nobility was safe from this court. The most prominent persons judged by the council were the counts of Egmont and Horne, who were arrested for high treason, condemned, and a year later decapitated on the Grand Place in Brussels. Egmont and Horne had been Catholic nobles who were loyal to the King of Spain until their death, and the reason for their execution was that Alba considered they had been too tolerant towards Protestantism. Their death provoked outrage throughout the Netherlands. The events earned Alba the nickname "the Iron Duke". More than one thousand people were executed in the following months.[2] The large number of executions lead the court to be nicknamed the Blood Court in the Netherlands, and added to the unrest.

          Eighty years war.
          en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighty_Years'_War
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  • Unsu...
     

    Re: does islam support forced conversions??

    Fri, September 15, 2006 - 3:14 PM
    Halla,

    I don't know what the Koran says. The forced I think is applicable to some Muslims, but I don't feel comfortable assuming that it is true overall.

    For the most part I think that Islam does seek to increase its influence through conversion. But is that really different from Christianity?
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      Re: does islam support forced conversions??

      Fri, September 15, 2006 - 6:39 PM
      eric: <<Halla,

      I don't know what the Koran says. The forced I think is applicable to some Muslims, but I don't feel comfortable assuming that it is true overall. >>

      answer: if you read the koran you too could know what it says, thus saving your resulting 'feely' nonsense.

      eric with his inevitable p.c. equivalency

      <<For the most part I think that Islam does seek to increase its influence through conversion. But is that really different from Christianity? Halla,

      I don't know what the Koran says. The forced I think is applicable to some Muslims, but I don't feel comfortable assuming that it is true overall.

      For the most part I think that Islam does seek to increase its influence through conversion. But is that really different from Christianity? >>

      answer yes.

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      • J-Red
        J-Red
        offline 16

        Re: does islam support forced conversions??

        Mon, September 18, 2006 - 7:02 AM
        "For the most part I think that Islam does seek to increase its influence through conversion. But is that really different from Christianity? >>
        answer yes."

        - How so Halla?
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          Re: does islam support forced conversions??

          Fri, September 22, 2006 - 9:23 AM
          check on the christian/moslem activity in africa. one is violent and one is not
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            Re: does islam support forced conversions??

            Fri, September 22, 2006 - 9:37 AM
            Halla,

            How do you think Africa became Christian?
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              Re: does islam support forced conversions??

              Fri, September 22, 2006 - 9:49 AM
              Halla,

              I think what you assert regarding Islamic expansionism is right, that violence and intimidation are a way of expanding Islamic influence. But I think that is not an exclusive trait, rather I think it is a quite common method, pursuasion by force. Christianity, or more precisely Catholicism I think, has been extremely violent. Judaism doesn't seem to promote mass conversions, and that to me is a major difference.

              Eric
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                Re: does islam support forced conversions??

                Fri, September 22, 2006 - 5:33 PM
                listen up dummies. much of the violence in africa "today" is a product of islamic efforts while the bulk of life sustaining charities comes from the christian west and or christian charities. go to the moslems dominated countries and you will find either sharia law established or imposed by the dominate group, the islamic religion.

                my final comment with you all. you are too stupid to talk to. i have other venues that i find much more challenging. the unidimensional thinking here is opaque to multidimensional dialogue.

                in truth, i am bored. that is the one sin this atheist will not tolerate.

                take you P.C. crap and relocate it up you ass. i am outta here.
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                • J-Red
                  J-Red
                  offline 16

                  Re: does islam support forced conversions??

                  Sat, September 23, 2006 - 5:13 PM
                  WOOOHOOO!!! Hey everyone, just wanted to let everybody know that I'm throwing a going away party for Halla. It'll be at my local synagogue in New Bedford, MA. If you can't find it, just drive around the west end of the city til you start to see Arabic heads on spikes with signs reading "In the name of Halla!" They'll be a few Hollywood celebrities along with some local politicians, so bring your digital cameras. Tickets are $60,000 in advance and $1.5 million at the door (to cover the costs of renting out the synagogue) and will include free appetizers and a meal for an extra $20,000. Your choice of Ham or Pork chops and appetizers will include scallops wrapped in bacon. Hope to see you there.

                  Sorry for that little outburst...
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    Re: does islam support forced conversions??

    Fri, September 15, 2006 - 6:03 PM
    Well, I was lookin' 'round the 'net to try and answer your question and found this article at FrontPage Mag which speaks to it. I only put down an excerpt but included the URL below it.
    -----------------------------

    *Fox News and Forced Conversions *
    By Robert Spencer FrontPageMagazine.com | August 30, 2006

    The most bizarre element of the two weeks of captivity suffered by Fox News reporter Steve Centanni and photographer Olaf Wiig at the hands of Gaza’s Holy Jihad Brigade was the video that surfaced depicting their conversion to Islam. Even before the journalists revealed that their conversions had been coerced, there were disturbing indications that they were not acting freely. While reading a statement he himself had ostensibly written, Centanni stumbled over words, appeared to puzzle over the handwriting, and seemed to grimace after pronouncing the words “peace be upon him” after the name of the Islamic prophet Muhammad.

    Their messages as new converts to Islam were predictable denunciations of the United States and Israel, combined with emphasis on Islam’s universal call as the solution to the world’s problems. But most jarring was the video editor’s invocation of the favorite Qur’an verse of Western analysts of Islam and terrorism, “There is no compulsion in religion” (2:256). The irony of featuring this verse in a video depicting two forced conversions has been widely noted. In fact, however, the juxtaposition of this verse with the video of Centanni and Wiig was probably not simply transparent deception, as strange as that may seem, and has far-reaching implications.

    Islamic law forbids forced conversion, but as Andrew Bostom documented in a FrontPage article yesterday, this is a law that throughout Islamic history has all too often been honored in the breach. Nor is this yet another case of a “twisting” or “hijacking” of Islam; in fact, Islamic law regarding the presentation of Islam to non-Muslims manifests a quite different understanding of what constitutes freedom from coercion and freedom of conscience from that which prevails among non-Muslims.

    Muhammad instructed his followers to call people to Islam before waging war against them – the warfare would follow from their refusal to accept Islam or to enter the Islamic social order as inferiors, required to pay a special tax:

    "Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war…When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them….If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya [the tax on non-Muslims specified in Qur’an 9:29]. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah’s help and fight them. (Sahih Muslim 4294)"

    There is therefore an inescapable threat in this “invitation” to accept Islam. Would one who converted to Islam under the threat of war be considered to have converted under duress? By non-Muslim standards, yes, but not according to the view of this Islamic tradition. From the standpoint of the traditional schools of Islamic jurisprudence such a conversion would have resulted from “no compulsion.”

    www.frontpagemag.com/Article...icle.asp
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      Re: does islam support forced conversions??

      Fri, September 15, 2006 - 6:33 PM
      Juanita,

      Let me ask you a question. First, I haven't read the article yet, and I will in a second, but want to say this first. I think there are many sources that will support your perspective and will also be considered credible. Front Page may not serve your purpose well at all.
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        Re: does islam support forced conversions??

        Fri, September 15, 2006 - 8:22 PM
        eric: <<Juanita,

        Let me ask you a question. First, I haven't read the article yet, and I will in a second, but want to say this first. I think there are many sources that will support your perspective and will also be considered credible. Front Page may not serve your purpose well at all. >>

        so eric opines without having read the article, about the credibility of the article's source!! remarkable. not one substantive comment.
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  • Unsu...
     

    Re: does islam support forced conversions??

    Fri, September 15, 2006 - 6:14 PM
    ...allow me to add this from Michelle Malkin's site which talks about conversion ala Adam Gadahn, the "American" Al Qaeda:

    <<<Watch the new al Qaeda video ( hotair.com/archives/200...nvert-or-die/ ) to see what an "invitation to Islam" sounds like. I've transcribed a sample of American al Qaeda Adam Gadahn's rant:

    "Islam is the only religion acceptable to God and came with the revealed book, the Koran, which abrogates all previous revelations, like the Torah and Evangel... God recognizes no separation between religion and state..."

    "To Americans and the rest of Christendom we say, either repent (your) misguided ways and enter into the light of truth or keep your poison to yourself and suffer the consequences in this world and the next..."

    "If the Zionist crusader missionaries of hate and counter-Islam consultants like Daniel Pipes, Robert Spencer, Michael Scheuer, Steven Emerson, and yes, even the crusader-in-chief George W. Bush were to *** abandon their unbelief and repent and enter into the light of Islam and ***turn their swords against the enemies of God***, it would be accepted of them and they would be our brothers in Islam. And we send a special invitation to all of you fighting Bush's crusader pipe dream in Afghanistan, Iraq, and wherever else W. has sent you to die."

    Reuters' brief report ( today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx ) doesn't mention Gadahn's targeting of Pipes, Emerson, Scheuer, and Spencer. Gadahn also extended a special plea to one of al Qaeda's favorite journalists, Seymour Hersh.

    More:

    "Why not surrender to the truth? Escape from the unbelieving army and join the winning side. As for those who have expressed their respect and admiration for Islam, and acknowledged that it is the truth and demonstrated the support and sympathy for the Muslims and their causes like George Galloway, Robert Fisk, and countless others, I say to them, isn't it time you stopped sitting on the fence and came over to the side of truth? ...Abandon unbelief and accept the truth."

    Or else.

    Who is Adam Gadahn? Watch here: hotair.com/archives/200...-adam-gadahn/ FBI bulletin here: www.fbi.gov/terrorinfo/gadahn.htm. All about Adam Gadahn here: michellemalkin.com/archives/000733.htm >>>>

    michellemalkin.com/archives/005851.htm
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  • Unsu...
     

    Re: does islam support forced conversions??

    Fri, September 15, 2006 - 7:01 PM
    Halla,

    Does Islam upset you ? It seems like you are driven to convince people that it is a real problem, yet I don't see why? I'mm also not understanding what you gain by discussing it here. Seeing that you become aggravated to the point of name calling I wonder if this is an exercise worthy of your superior intellect.

    In your eyes what would afford you satisfaction. If you can achieve that then there would really be no need to address people with such disdain. Have I done something that has upset you to this extent that you feel the need to insult? Is that a good use of your vast vocabulary?

    I'm on your side of course.
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    • Unsu...
       

      Re: does islam support forced conversions??

      Fri, September 15, 2006 - 8:34 PM
      eric: <<Seeing that you become aggravated to the point of name calling I wonder if this is an exercise worthy of your superior intellect. >>

      answer: coming from an asshole who said < i fart in your beard> i accept that eric works with what he has to full advantage. in fact the gas bag might be called an over achiever! he insults people by whistling out his ass!!

      eric, try this tune, it should help: I Whistle a Happy Tune Lyrics

      Whenever I feel afraid
      I hold my head erect
      And whistle a happy tune
      So no one will suspect
      I'm afraid.

      While shivering in my shoes
      I strike a careless pose
      And whistle a happy tune
      And no one ever knows
      I'm afraid.

      with all that air coming out his orifice Eric may need to change his Depends!
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      • Unsu...
         

        Re: does islam support forced conversions??

        Sat, September 16, 2006 - 12:14 AM
        Halla,

        You make my point. You love to get on everyone's case, but truth be told, you can't take it. You dish it out like a champ, but when it comes your way, hmmmmm, nothing, you get all twisted, call people names, complete loss of composure. You wanna call me an asshole, fine. If I thought I was I'd behave like you, wounded. I know I'm not an asshole, I just ask you questions that you can't handle so you try to make me look like a bad guy. Well Halla, I'm not a bad guy, and I don't expose myself in a way that you'd know if I was.

        I've said it before. By trying to hurt peoples feelings you show who you are, a very simple guy, with a need for validation. Yeah it's psychobabble, and ya know what, it fits you. By using big words and then bitching about how I talk you show your contradictions. If all you do is try to convince yourself that you're superior to people, you end up fighting a battle wth yourself that can't be won. Is that a mark of an intelligent person?

        Yeah, you sure have us all convinced of your superior intellect.

        You hate muslim people we get the point. As if that is something to be proud of.

        I'm sure you'll say something about me, like I'm some fool or some terrible name. Yeah, you've said it all before, same old stuff. Predictable, inconsequential, and futile garbage, that's all it is.
        join to post
        • J-Red
          J-Red
          offline 16

          Re: does islam support forced conversions??

          Sat, September 16, 2006 - 3:10 PM
          "I've said it before. By trying to hurt peoples feelings you show who you are, a very simple guy, with a need for validation. Yeah it's psychobabble, and ya know what, it fits you. By using big words and then bitching about how I talk you show your contradictions. If all you do is try to convince yourself that you're superior to people, you end up fighting a battle wth yourself that can't be won. Is that a mark of an intelligent person?"

          - Well put Eric.

          "You hate muslim people we get the point. As if that is something to be proud of."

          - To the contrary, isn't that considered racism?
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          • Unsu...
             

            Re: does islam support forced conversions??

            Sat, September 16, 2006 - 4:58 PM
            J-Red,

            What I said is not an angry retort, I really feel sad. Juanita says we are on sides, Halla certainly gives off the same impression. It's sheer lunacy to think that anyone who is critical of Zionism or Israeli politics is trying to destroy Israel or a Jewish homeland. I'm critical of Pres. Bush, but I dont' espouse destroying the U.S. Hell, I'm critical of myself, with the intent of addressing my shortcomings.

            My sadness is based on what I think is so harmful to everyone, willingness to blame Palestinian people or Muslims, or the Man on the Moon, for our actions. It's a gross generalization, something that I observed growing up in my family and my parents friends, that holding the Israelis responsible for their actions is threatening, but being hyper-critical of the Arabs is the truth. Do as I say not as I do is a hollow statement, an excuse, a denial. Does holding Israel accountable to it's actions mean something bad? Am I not being loyal? Or is it possible that loyalty that justifies needless harm is not something to loyal or supportive of?

            There are some really smart people here, Halla is clearly intelligent, but it gets muffled in self-protective rhetoric.

            Were all guilty of it, but not to the same degree.
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            • Unsu...
               

              Re: does islam support forced conversions??

              Sat, September 16, 2006 - 8:20 PM
              All right, let's look at the 'substance' of Eric's remarks, leaving his emotions out of it. He says: >>It's sheer lunacy to think that anyone who is critical of Zionism or Israeli politics is trying to destroy Israel or a Jewish homeland.

              It is sheer lunacy to think that there is not a huge contingent of Palestinians, Arabs, Muslims who do not want to destroy Israel or a "Jewish homeland."

              www.zionism-israel.com/his/je...ism.htm

              maybe something there will do something for you
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              • Unsu...
                 

                Re: does islam support forced conversions??

                Sun, September 17, 2006 - 12:00 AM
                >>It's sheer lunacy to think that anyone who is critical of Zionism or Israeli politics is trying to destroy Israel or a Jewish homeland.<<

                That is my statement, your response is not reflective of what I said. Again, I'm not interested in bickering over opinions. You've made yourself clear. If you choose to approach this as a competitive exercise, your only opponent is yourself. You also have made it very clear that you aren't going to respect anyone who doesn't share your views, and you have made it clear that even though you feel that anyone who insults you is misguided, you respond witht the same misguided solution.

                This is old stuff. Nothing is changing. It doesn't matter what people say, if you've decided they are on the other side, you and Halla do the same thing. You try to dismiss perspectives that you feel threatened by, and you insult people. You don't present anything new, as you and Halla seem obsessed with defending yourselves instead of broadening your perspective.

                And you never accept responsibility for yourself, rather you blame everyone else. That is why when you blame the Palestinians, when you blame the Muslims for so much, it means nothing. If you won't receive input, if all you do is disqualify viewpoints that don't fit your perspective, while approaching discussion as if it were a contest then you have nothing to offer, because all you're doing is protecting yourself. You said this is the last place you would go to learn about the mideast. That statement exposes so much, as you think you've insulted people, you've really told us that you're not available. There are some people here who are very intelligent, are just as committed to their views as you or I, and deserve the same respect that you feel you deserve.

                You can spend all the time you want finding flaws in me. I don't have a problem with that, what I can't understand is that you and Halla don't see that you're creating conflict that has no purpose. You've never shown any interest or fascination in what people have offered, and that is too bad. You both feel that criticism is an attack, yet it's really a request, but you're going to defend yourself even though the only threat you perceive you create.

                I'm sure you think I'm baseless and emotional and angry. I don't really care. I've said it before, I'm sad about this, and I'm troubled that we're all Jewish.
                Do you have any gratitude, do you know what humility is and how important it is? To think you're so smart that you can just dismiss everything that you don't like is really sad. It's tragic.
                join to post
                • J-Red
                  J-Red
                  offline 16

                  Re: does islam support forced conversions??

                  Sun, September 17, 2006 - 5:24 AM
                  BRAVO Eric! That was PERFECT! Hit Juanita and Halla right on the nose. Especially this line:

                  "That is why when you blame the Palestinians, when you blame the Muslims for so much, it means nothing."

                  - BRAVO! Juanita and Halla, wouldn't you rather have people take you seriously, as opposed to just shutting you down and brushing you off as ignorant racists? I'm being serious here. Read the question before you respond defensively! Do you realize that by acting the way you do, you completely sabotage any and everything you happen to ever say that actually has substance? I don't know of anyone on here who actually holds either one of you in any kind of regard as to actually try and have a normal discussion with you. Doesn't that defeat your whole purpose? By having an actual open, respectful debate with someone, you have a FAR better chance of having them understand your point of view than acting like a jackass. I'll admit, I am FAR less critical of Israel now then when I first came on Tribe for the simple reason of people like Adam, Luminous, etc... who have actually had normal discussions with me and made me see that everything is NOT Israel's fault. Don't you think that's more productive than getting people to hate you?

                  Anyway, I'm just trying to level with you. I'm hoping that you'll set aside your ego for a second and actually LISTEN to what we're trying to say here. If not, I frankly don't give a fuck. LOL I'm just trying to help you out. We could go on and on forever with the namecalling, joke-cracking, attack / defense rants that we've been doing since day one, and it won't hurt me any. The only thing is, don't expect me, or anyone else for that matter, to ever understand your point of view. But, if you do take this advice seriously, I don't expect you to immediately become Mickey Mouse on here overnight. Just try and explain yourself better, without using personal attacks and racist comments... And I guarantee that myself, along with many other people on here, will start to actually listen to what you have to say. Until then, your talking to a fucking wall.
                  join to post
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Unsu...
                     

                    Re: does islam support forced conversions??

                    Sun, September 17, 2006 - 8:09 AM
                    Yes, J-Unread -- you have been threatening not to talk to either of us virtually from day one. Unfortunately you don't seem to have the discipline to stick to your game plan for 5 minutes. I would think if we " completely sabotage any and everything you happen to ever say that actually has substance" you would just let us talk to ourselves, thus managing to do your work for you. God knows that you have yet to demonstrate substantive & irrefutable argument in opposition to my or halla's point of view.

                    >> Don't you think that's more productive than getting people to hate you?

                    By all means hate us. That seems to be what "your side" is best at. I should think today you'd be out on the street burning down Catholic or Greek Orthodox (WTF?) churches like the rest of your compadres.
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                    • J-Red
                      J-Red
                      offline 16

                      Re: does islam support forced conversions??

                      Mon, September 18, 2006 - 6:28 AM
                      Juan, you failed to answer any of my questions.

                      "you have been threatening not to talk to either of us virtually from day one."

                      - I have? I remember saying that once or twice but... Anyway...

                      "God knows that you have yet to demonstrate substantive & irrefutable argument in opposition to my or halla's point of view."

                      - Really? I can remember completely destroying you on three seperate occasions this week alone. One being the fact that you refused to accept that the U.S. had bombed Iraq nearly every other day since 91'. Another being the fact that you claimed Operations Desert Strike and Desert Fox we're NOT "bombing campaigns" as I clearly outlined in several sources where they are mentioned as exactly that. And finally... sorry, in a rush right now. I'll try to find the third episode of you getting torn to shreads withing this week alone later if you want... But anyway... I would appreciate if you re-read my post, and offered some answers to my questions.
                      join to post
            • J-Red
              J-Red
              offline 16

              Re: does islam support forced conversions??

              Sun, September 17, 2006 - 5:00 AM
              "Halla is clearly intelligent, but it gets muffled in self-protective rhetoric."

              - I beg to differ. Halla uses "big" words in an attempt to sound intelligent. As opposed to truly intelligent people who try to use the "lightest" form of linguistics possible to state their case in discussion, for the simple reason of trying to make the other side understand EXACTLY what he/she means. Especially in debate. The use of simple analogies is prime example. Though not always perfect, analogies allow one to explain his/her case in simpliest form. This is a natural way of dialogue... for intelligent people anyway. Sorry, thats a bit of Debate and Linguistics 101 from last semester speaking... LOL
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  • Unsu...
     

    Re: does islam support forced conversions??

    Fri, September 15, 2006 - 7:13 PM
    Halla,

    Would you agree that pursuading people to convert and accept a different belief system is not morally acceptable?

    As you seem to be asserting that Islam condones forced conversions, I fear that you show a similar desire to convince people here that they are pursuing the wrong path to salvation, and that they are absurd if they don't see things exactly as you do. Is that accurate? By trying to convince people that you are superior to them and insulting their viewpoints are you displaying yourself in the same image as that which you disdain?

    Such anger, such willingness to try and hurt people while at the same time trying to convince people that you are the ideal moral specimen. How can that be anything but contradictory. I'm sure you'll insult me, and that is fine, it's very hard to take any of this seriously, as it is really quite funny.
    join to post

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