"Every honest Jew who knows the history of his people cannot but feel a deep sense of gratitude to Islam, which has protected the Jews for fifty generations, while the Christian world persecuted the Jews and tried many times "by the sword" to get them to abandon their faith."
Muhammad's Sword
by Uri Avnery ( avnery@...)
23 Sept. 2006
Since the days when Roman Emperors threw Christians to the lions, the relations between the emperors and the heads of the church have undergone many changes.
Constantine the Great, who became Emperor in the year 306 - exactly 1700 years ago - encouraged the practice of Christianity in the empire, which included Palestine. Centuries later, the church split into an Eastern (Orthodox) and a Western (Catholic) part. In the West, the Bishop of Rome, who acquired the title of Pope, demanded that the Emperor accept his superiority.
The struggle between the Emperors and the Popes played a central role in European history and divided the peoples. It knew ups and downs. Some Emperors dismissed or expelled a Pope, some Popes dismissed or excommunicated an Emperor. One of the Emperors, Henry IV, "walked to Canossa", standing for three days barefoot in the snow in front of the Pope's castle, until the Pope deigned to annul his excommunication.
But there were times when Emperors and Popes lived in peace with each other. We are witnessing such a period today. Between the present Pope, Benedict XVI, and the present Emperor, George Bush II, there exists a wonderful harmony. Last week's speech by the Pope, which aroused a world-wide storm, went well with Bush's crusade against "Islamofascism", in the context of the "Clash of Civilizations".
IN HIS lecture at a German university, the 265th Pope described what he sees as a huge difference between Christianity and Islam: while Christianity is based on reason, Islam denies it. While Christians see the logic of God's actions, Muslims deny that there is any such logic in the actions of Allah.
As a Jewish atheist, I do not intend to enter the fray of this debate. It is much beyond my humble abilities to understand the logic of the Pope. But I cannot overlook one passage, which concerns me too, as an Israeli living near the fault-line of this "war of civilizations".
In order to prove the lack of reason in Islam, the Pope asserts that the prophet Muhammad ordered his followers to spread their religion by the sword. According to the Pope, that is unreasonable, because faith is born of the soul, not of the body. How can the sword influence the soul?
To support his case, the Pope quoted - of all people - a Byzantine Emperor, who belonged, of course, to the competing Eastern Church. At the end of the 14th century, the Emperor Manuel II Palaeologus told of a debate he had - or so he said (its occurrence is in doubt) - with an unnamed Persian Muslim scholar. In the heat of the argument, the Emperor (according to himself) flung the following words at his adversary:
"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached".
These words give rise to three questions: (a) Why did the Emperor say them? (b) Are they true? (c) Why did the present Pope quote them?
WHEN MANUEL II wrote his treatise, he was the head of a dying empire. He assumed power in 1391, when only a few provinces of the once illustrious empire remained. These, too, were already under Turkish threat.
At that point in time, the Ottoman Turks had reached the banks of the Danube. They had conquered Bulgaria and the north of Greece, and had twice defeated relieving armies sent by Europe to save the Eastern Empire. On May 29, 1453, only a few years after Manuel's death, his capital, Constantinople (the present Istanbul) fell to the Turks, putting an end to the Empire that had lasted for more than a thousand years.
During his reign, Manuel made the rounds of the capitals of Europe in an attempt to drum up support. He promised to reunite the church. There is no doubt that he wrote his religious treatise in order to incite the Christian countries against the Turks and convince them to start a new crusade. The aim was practical, theology was serving politics.
In this sense, the quote serves exactly the requirements of the present Emperor, George Bush II. He, too, wants to unite the Christian world against the mainly Muslim "Axis of Evil". Moreover, the Turks are again knocking on the doors of Europe, this time peacefully. It is well known that the Pope supports the forces that object to the entry of Turkey into the European Union.
IS THERE any truth in Manuel's argument?
The pope himself threw in a word of caution. As a serious and renowned theologian, he could not afford to falsify written texts. Therefore, he admitted that the Qur'an specifically forbade the spreading of the faith by force. He quoted the second Sura, verse 256 (strangely fallible, for a pope, he meant verse 257) which says: "There must be no coercion in matters of faith".
How can one ignore such an unequivocal statement? The Pope simply argues that this commandment was laid down by the prophet when he was at the beginning of his career, still weak and powerless, but that later on he ordered the use of the sword in the service of the faith. Such an order does not exist in the Qur'an. True, Muhammad called for the use of the sword in his war against opposing tribes - Christian, Jewish and others - in Arabia, when he was building his state. But that was a political act, not a religious one; basically a fight for territory, not for the spreading of the faith.
Jesus said: "You will recognize them by their fruits." The treatment of other religions by Islam must be judged by a simple test: How did the Muslim rulers behave for more than a thousand years, when they had the power to "spread the faith by the sword"?
Well, they just did not.
For many centuries, the Muslims ruled Greece. Did the Greeks become Muslims? Did anyone even try to Islamize them? On the contrary, Christian Greeks held the highest positions in the Ottoman administration. The Bulgarians, Serbs, Romanians, Hungarians and other European nations lived at one time or another under Ottoman rule and clung to their Christian faith. Nobody compelled them to become Muslims and all of them remained devoutly Christian.
True, the Albanians did convert to Islam, and so did the Bosniaks. But nobody argues that they did this under duress. They adopted Islam in order to become favorites of the government and enjoy the fruits.
In 1099, the Crusaders conquered Jerusalem and massacred its Muslim and Jewish inhabitants indiscriminately, in the name of the gentle Jesus. At that time, 400 years into the occupation of Palestine by the Muslims, Christians were still the majority in the country. Throughout this long period, no effort was made to impose Islam on them. Only after the expulsion of the Crusaders from the country, did the majority of the inhabitants start to adopt the Arabic language and the Muslim faith - and they were the forefathers of most of today's Palestinians.
THERE IS no evidence whatsoever of any attempt to impose Islam on the Jews. As is well known, under Muslim rule the Jews of Spain enjoyed a bloom the like of which the Jews did not enjoy anywhere else until almost our time. Poets like Yehuda Halevy wrote in Arabic, as did the great Maimonides. In Muslim Spain, Jews were ministers, poets, scientists. In Muslim Toledo, Christian, Jewish and Muslim scholars worked together and translated the ancient Greek philosophical and scientific texts. That was, indeed, the Golden Age. How would this have been possible, had the Prophet decreed the "spreading of the faith by the sword"?
What happened afterwards is even more telling. When the Catholics re-conquered Spain from the Muslims, they instituted a reign of religious terror. The Jews and the Muslims were presented with a cruel choice: to become Christians, to be massacred or to leave. And where did the hundreds of thousand of Jews, who refused to abandon their faith, escape? Almost all of them were received with open arms in the Muslim countries. The Sephardi ("Spanish") Jews settled all over the Muslim world, from Morocco in the west to Iraq in the east, from Bulgaria (then part of the Ottoman Empire) in the north to Sudan in the south. Nowhere were they persecuted. They knew nothing like the tortures of the Inquisition, the flames of the auto-da-fe, the pogroms, the terrible mass-expulsions that took place in almost all Christian countries, up to the Holocaust.
WHY? Because Islam expressly prohibited any persecution of the "peoples of the book". In Islamic society, a special place was reserved for Jews and Christians. They did not enjoy completely equal rights, but almost. They had to pay a special poll-tax, but were exempted from military service - a trade-off that was quite welcome to many Jews. It has been said that Muslim rulers frowned upon any attempt to convert Jews to Islam even by gentle persuasion - because it entailed the loss of taxes.
Every honest Jew who knows the history of his people cannot but feel a deep sense of gratitude to Islam, which has protected the Jews for fifty generations, while the Christian world persecuted the Jews and tried many times "by the sword" to get them to abandon their faith.
THE STORY about "spreading the faith by the sword" is an evil legend, one of the myths that grew up in Europe during the great wars against the Muslims - the reconquista of Spain by the Christians, the Crusades and the repulsion of the Turks, who almost conquered Vienna. I suspect that the German Pope, too, honestly believes in these fables. That means that the leader of the Catholic world, who is a Christian theologian in his own right, did not make the effort to study the history of other religions.
Why did he utter these words in public? And why now?
There is no escape from viewing them against the background of the new Crusade of Bush and his evangelist supporters, with his slogans of "Islamofascism" and the "Global War on Terrorism" - when "terrorism" has become a synonym for Muslims. For Bush's handlers, this is a cynical attempt to justify the domination of the world's oil resources. Not for the first time in history, a religious robe is spread to cover the nakedness of economic interests; not for the first time, a robbers' expedition becomes a Crusade.
The speech of the Pope blends into this effort. Who can foretell the dire consequences?
--
………………………
"The Road to Success is ALWAYS UNDER CONSTRUCTION"
Muhammad's Sword
by Uri Avnery ( avnery@...)
23 Sept. 2006
Since the days when Roman Emperors threw Christians to the lions, the relations between the emperors and the heads of the church have undergone many changes.
Constantine the Great, who became Emperor in the year 306 - exactly 1700 years ago - encouraged the practice of Christianity in the empire, which included Palestine. Centuries later, the church split into an Eastern (Orthodox) and a Western (Catholic) part. In the West, the Bishop of Rome, who acquired the title of Pope, demanded that the Emperor accept his superiority.
The struggle between the Emperors and the Popes played a central role in European history and divided the peoples. It knew ups and downs. Some Emperors dismissed or expelled a Pope, some Popes dismissed or excommunicated an Emperor. One of the Emperors, Henry IV, "walked to Canossa", standing for three days barefoot in the snow in front of the Pope's castle, until the Pope deigned to annul his excommunication.
But there were times when Emperors and Popes lived in peace with each other. We are witnessing such a period today. Between the present Pope, Benedict XVI, and the present Emperor, George Bush II, there exists a wonderful harmony. Last week's speech by the Pope, which aroused a world-wide storm, went well with Bush's crusade against "Islamofascism", in the context of the "Clash of Civilizations".
IN HIS lecture at a German university, the 265th Pope described what he sees as a huge difference between Christianity and Islam: while Christianity is based on reason, Islam denies it. While Christians see the logic of God's actions, Muslims deny that there is any such logic in the actions of Allah.
As a Jewish atheist, I do not intend to enter the fray of this debate. It is much beyond my humble abilities to understand the logic of the Pope. But I cannot overlook one passage, which concerns me too, as an Israeli living near the fault-line of this "war of civilizations".
In order to prove the lack of reason in Islam, the Pope asserts that the prophet Muhammad ordered his followers to spread their religion by the sword. According to the Pope, that is unreasonable, because faith is born of the soul, not of the body. How can the sword influence the soul?
To support his case, the Pope quoted - of all people - a Byzantine Emperor, who belonged, of course, to the competing Eastern Church. At the end of the 14th century, the Emperor Manuel II Palaeologus told of a debate he had - or so he said (its occurrence is in doubt) - with an unnamed Persian Muslim scholar. In the heat of the argument, the Emperor (according to himself) flung the following words at his adversary:
"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached".
These words give rise to three questions: (a) Why did the Emperor say them? (b) Are they true? (c) Why did the present Pope quote them?
WHEN MANUEL II wrote his treatise, he was the head of a dying empire. He assumed power in 1391, when only a few provinces of the once illustrious empire remained. These, too, were already under Turkish threat.
At that point in time, the Ottoman Turks had reached the banks of the Danube. They had conquered Bulgaria and the north of Greece, and had twice defeated relieving armies sent by Europe to save the Eastern Empire. On May 29, 1453, only a few years after Manuel's death, his capital, Constantinople (the present Istanbul) fell to the Turks, putting an end to the Empire that had lasted for more than a thousand years.
During his reign, Manuel made the rounds of the capitals of Europe in an attempt to drum up support. He promised to reunite the church. There is no doubt that he wrote his religious treatise in order to incite the Christian countries against the Turks and convince them to start a new crusade. The aim was practical, theology was serving politics.
In this sense, the quote serves exactly the requirements of the present Emperor, George Bush II. He, too, wants to unite the Christian world against the mainly Muslim "Axis of Evil". Moreover, the Turks are again knocking on the doors of Europe, this time peacefully. It is well known that the Pope supports the forces that object to the entry of Turkey into the European Union.
IS THERE any truth in Manuel's argument?
The pope himself threw in a word of caution. As a serious and renowned theologian, he could not afford to falsify written texts. Therefore, he admitted that the Qur'an specifically forbade the spreading of the faith by force. He quoted the second Sura, verse 256 (strangely fallible, for a pope, he meant verse 257) which says: "There must be no coercion in matters of faith".
How can one ignore such an unequivocal statement? The Pope simply argues that this commandment was laid down by the prophet when he was at the beginning of his career, still weak and powerless, but that later on he ordered the use of the sword in the service of the faith. Such an order does not exist in the Qur'an. True, Muhammad called for the use of the sword in his war against opposing tribes - Christian, Jewish and others - in Arabia, when he was building his state. But that was a political act, not a religious one; basically a fight for territory, not for the spreading of the faith.
Jesus said: "You will recognize them by their fruits." The treatment of other religions by Islam must be judged by a simple test: How did the Muslim rulers behave for more than a thousand years, when they had the power to "spread the faith by the sword"?
Well, they just did not.
For many centuries, the Muslims ruled Greece. Did the Greeks become Muslims? Did anyone even try to Islamize them? On the contrary, Christian Greeks held the highest positions in the Ottoman administration. The Bulgarians, Serbs, Romanians, Hungarians and other European nations lived at one time or another under Ottoman rule and clung to their Christian faith. Nobody compelled them to become Muslims and all of them remained devoutly Christian.
True, the Albanians did convert to Islam, and so did the Bosniaks. But nobody argues that they did this under duress. They adopted Islam in order to become favorites of the government and enjoy the fruits.
In 1099, the Crusaders conquered Jerusalem and massacred its Muslim and Jewish inhabitants indiscriminately, in the name of the gentle Jesus. At that time, 400 years into the occupation of Palestine by the Muslims, Christians were still the majority in the country. Throughout this long period, no effort was made to impose Islam on them. Only after the expulsion of the Crusaders from the country, did the majority of the inhabitants start to adopt the Arabic language and the Muslim faith - and they were the forefathers of most of today's Palestinians.
THERE IS no evidence whatsoever of any attempt to impose Islam on the Jews. As is well known, under Muslim rule the Jews of Spain enjoyed a bloom the like of which the Jews did not enjoy anywhere else until almost our time. Poets like Yehuda Halevy wrote in Arabic, as did the great Maimonides. In Muslim Spain, Jews were ministers, poets, scientists. In Muslim Toledo, Christian, Jewish and Muslim scholars worked together and translated the ancient Greek philosophical and scientific texts. That was, indeed, the Golden Age. How would this have been possible, had the Prophet decreed the "spreading of the faith by the sword"?
What happened afterwards is even more telling. When the Catholics re-conquered Spain from the Muslims, they instituted a reign of religious terror. The Jews and the Muslims were presented with a cruel choice: to become Christians, to be massacred or to leave. And where did the hundreds of thousand of Jews, who refused to abandon their faith, escape? Almost all of them were received with open arms in the Muslim countries. The Sephardi ("Spanish") Jews settled all over the Muslim world, from Morocco in the west to Iraq in the east, from Bulgaria (then part of the Ottoman Empire) in the north to Sudan in the south. Nowhere were they persecuted. They knew nothing like the tortures of the Inquisition, the flames of the auto-da-fe, the pogroms, the terrible mass-expulsions that took place in almost all Christian countries, up to the Holocaust.
WHY? Because Islam expressly prohibited any persecution of the "peoples of the book". In Islamic society, a special place was reserved for Jews and Christians. They did not enjoy completely equal rights, but almost. They had to pay a special poll-tax, but were exempted from military service - a trade-off that was quite welcome to many Jews. It has been said that Muslim rulers frowned upon any attempt to convert Jews to Islam even by gentle persuasion - because it entailed the loss of taxes.
Every honest Jew who knows the history of his people cannot but feel a deep sense of gratitude to Islam, which has protected the Jews for fifty generations, while the Christian world persecuted the Jews and tried many times "by the sword" to get them to abandon their faith.
THE STORY about "spreading the faith by the sword" is an evil legend, one of the myths that grew up in Europe during the great wars against the Muslims - the reconquista of Spain by the Christians, the Crusades and the repulsion of the Turks, who almost conquered Vienna. I suspect that the German Pope, too, honestly believes in these fables. That means that the leader of the Catholic world, who is a Christian theologian in his own right, did not make the effort to study the history of other religions.
Why did he utter these words in public? And why now?
There is no escape from viewing them against the background of the new Crusade of Bush and his evangelist supporters, with his slogans of "Islamofascism" and the "Global War on Terrorism" - when "terrorism" has become a synonym for Muslims. For Bush's handlers, this is a cynical attempt to justify the domination of the world's oil resources. Not for the first time in history, a religious robe is spread to cover the nakedness of economic interests; not for the first time, a robbers' expedition becomes a Crusade.
The speech of the Pope blends into this effort. Who can foretell the dire consequences?
--
………………………
"The Road to Success is ALWAYS UNDER CONSTRUCTION"
-
Unsu...
Re: Muhammad's Sword
Wed, September 27, 2006 - 9:20 PMdoes oozman wish to kill this horse again??
avnery wrongly corrected the pope on the sura and verse attributed to 2:256 by the pope and wrongly 'corrected' by avnery to 2:257.
the offending avnery paragraph:<<The pope himself threw in a word of caution. As a serious and renowned theologian, he could not afford to falsify written texts. Therefore, he admitted that the Qur'an specifically forbade the spreading of the faith by force. He quoted the second Sura, verse 256 (strangely fallible, for a pope, he meant verse 257) which says: "There must be no coercion in matters of faith". >>
pickthall:
[2:256] There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower.
as a point of information
pickthall:
[2:257] Allah is the Protecting Guardian of those who believe. He bringeth them out of darkness into light. As for those who disbelieve, their patrons are false deities. They bring them out of light into darkness. Such are rightful owners of the Fire. They will abide therein.
for those in need of verification go here pick a translator and put 2:256 into the search
www.quranbrowser.org/search.html
**************************************************************
not wishing oozman to be a stand a lone in his ignorance i will republish proof that indeed islam was spread by the sword. i will use the koran to do it and keep my rhetoric to a minimum!
averny: <<How can one ignore such an unequivocal statement? The Pope simply argues that this commandment was laid down by the prophet when he was at the beginning of his career, still weak and powerless, but that later on he ordered the use of the sword in the service of the faith. Such an order does not exist in the Qur'an. True, Muhammad called for the use of the sword in his war against opposing tribes - Christian, Jewish and others - in Arabia, when he was building his state. But that was a political act, not a religious one; basically a fight for territory, not for the spreading of the faith.>>
argument:
[2:256] There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower.
[9:5] Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[9:6] And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the Word of Allah, and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not.
conclusion: there can be no doubt that the koran was spread by the sword.
supporting evidence:
(the following sura binds the world idolater to christians/jews <<[3:67] Abraham was not a Jew, nor yet a Christian; but he was an upright man who had surrendered (to Allah), and he was not of the idolaters.>>)
supporting argument:
now the koran as reveled text, ie the sequence in which the suras were reveled shows that sura 2 came before sura 9. and under sura [2:106] Nothing of our revelation (even a single verse) do we abrogate or cause be forgotten, but we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof. Knowest thou not that Allah is Able to do all things ?
all that means:
whatever is in 9 supersedes that which is in 2. so the "no compulsion" in sura 2:256 is replaced by something better in sura 9:5/9:6
supporting evidence on the sequence of the reveled koran
(2), 8, 3, 33, 60, 4, 99, 57, 47, 13, 55, 76, 65, 98, 59, 24, 22, 63, 58, 49, 66, 64, 61, 62, 48, 5, (9), 110
i await oozman's timely response! tick, tock, tick, tock
The Watch
I waken on my hot, hard bed
upon my pillow lay my head
beneath my pillow I can hear
my little watch ticking clear
I thought the going of it went like my continual discontent
I thought I heard in every tick
I am so sick, so sick, so sick
Oh Death, come quick, come quick, come quick, come quick, come quick…
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Re: Muhammad's Sword
Wed, September 27, 2006 - 9:20 PMWow! I couldn't have said that better! March on..... -
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Unsu...
Re: Muhammad's Sword
Wed, September 27, 2006 - 9:58 PMnow for some more avnery:
<<WHY? Because Islam expressly prohibited any persecution of the "peoples of the book". In Islamic society, a special place was reserved for Jews and Christians. They did not enjoy completely equal rights, but almost. They had to pay a special poll-tax, but were exempted from military service--a trade-off that was quite welcome to many Jews. It has been said that Muslim rulers frowned upon any attempt to convert Jews to Islam even by gentle persuasion--because it entailed the loss of taxes.
Every honest Jew who knows the history of his people cannot but feel a deep sense of gratitude to Islam, which has protected the Jews for fifty generations, while the Christian world persecuted the Jews and tried many times "by the sword" to get them to abandon their faith.>>
http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:p8Wb6OB6F0IJ:www.counterpunch.org/+Every+ho...=clnk&cd=1
i wish to engage this << Because Islam expressly prohibited any persecution of the "peoples of the book".>> with a sura or two or more:
33:26 And He brought those of the People of the Scripture (jews/christians) who supported them down from their strongholds, and cast panic into their hearts. Some ye slew, and ye made captive some.
33:27 And He caused you to inherit their land and their houses and their wealth, and land ye have not trodden. Allah is ever Able to do all things.
[9:29] Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture (jews/christians) as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.
[9:29]Fight those who believe neither in Allah nor the Last Day (infidels), nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book (Christians and Jews), until they pay the Jiziya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
[9:29] Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.
given the koranics, what reasonable person would use avnery's quote: << Because Islam expressly prohibited any persecution of the "peoples of the book">> to define the relationship between islam/jews
the fellow is divorced from reality! -
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Re: Muhammad's Sword
Thu, September 28, 2006 - 2:51 AMOfcourse you are right Halla.
For balance some racist/fascist quotes from the bible:
Genesis:
24:1 And Abraham was old, and well stricken in age: and the LORD had blessed Abraham in all things.
24:2 And Abraham said unto his eldest servant of his house, that ruled over all that he had, Put, I pray thee, thy hand under my thigh:
(24:2, 9)
"Put ... thy hand under my thigh."
Abraham makes his servant put his hand under his thigh while swearing to God. "Putting his hand under his thigh" is a euphemism for "holding his testicles in his hand." I guess it's sort of like swearing on the bible. But all forms of swearing are forbidden in Mt.5:34-37 and Jas.5:12.
Is it OK to swear?
(24:3)
Abraham makes his servant swear that he won't let Isaac marry a Canaanite.
24:3 And I will make thee swear by the LORD, the God of heaven, and the God of the earth, that thou shalt not take a wife unto my son of the daughters of the Canaanites, among whom I dwell:
Swearing is no problem, racism is bad.
Exodus
God will kill the Egyptian children to show that he puts "a difference between the Egyptians and Israel." 11:7
God favors Israelites "above all people." 19:5
"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." Thousands of innocent women have suffered excruciating deaths because of this verse. 22:18
Leviticus
If a man has sex with another man, kill them both. 20:13 -
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Re: Muhammad's Sword
Thu, September 28, 2006 - 2:56 AMgod did not say that.
Moses did. -
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Re: Muhammad's Sword
Thu, September 28, 2006 - 3:02 AMen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_...mmandments
For example.
I do not respect Sabat.
I work seven days a week.
Sin.
viriya parami : energy, diligence, vigour, effort (buddhism) a sin?
nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paramita
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viriya
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism
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Unsu...
Re: Muhammad's Sword
Thu, September 28, 2006 - 5:33 AMharem, i am refuting the avnery article posted by oozman, i am not claiming the bible is innocent/not innocent. -
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Re: Muhammad's Sword
Thu, September 28, 2006 - 6:26 AMi am refuting the bible posted by ?, i am not claiming you are innocent/not innocent. -
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So what this evangelist idiot is peddling here:
Thu, September 28, 2006 - 2:59 PMIs that Avnery can't say that:
A) "Every honest Jew who knows the history of his people cannot but feel a deep sense of gratitude to Islam, which has protected the Jews for fifty generations,
B) while the Christian world persecuted the Jews and tried many times "by the sword" to get them to abandon their faith."
I think his hateful stupidity prevents from comprehending the article. There's no other explanation. -
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Unsu...
Oozie is putting up his us-ual propaganda....
Thu, September 28, 2006 - 4:26 PMLooks like oozeman has put up a straw man again, instead of answering halla's well-reasoned post. Averni (the aetheist Jew -would that be an oxymoron - some might think so) begins by insulting the Pope and claiming that he doesn't know his what he is talking about, an accusation he proves against himself.
On the issue of the "honest Jew" acknowledging a "deep sense of gratitude to Islam" Averny suffers from hyperbole here. There is much more to history than a paragraph saying how excellent the Muslims were to Jews. Both Christians and Muslims have taken their turn abusing Jews -- but the Christians have long since stopped behaving like the Jihadists. Furthermore, the Christians have been willing to accept all the blame for the Crusades until now, when Muslim Jihadists have been demanding it as an excuse to continue to abuse both Christians and Jews worldwide. Or should I say Christians and Jews and Buddhists and Ba'hai and so forth and so on...
This is a slanted, inciteful article that doesn't deal with the issue that the Pope brought up at all. If you want to read what the Pope wrote in full, and what the fool Averny is pretending to answer, you can find the full text of the Pope's article here: www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm
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Re: Oozie is putting up his us-ual propaganda....
Thu, September 28, 2006 - 4:38 PMjuanita:
> Both Christians and Muslims have taken their turn abusing Jews -- but the Christians have long since stopped behaving like the Jihadists. Furthermore, the Christians have been willing to accept all the blame for the Crusades until now, when Muslim Jihadists have been demanding it as an excuse to continue to abuse both Christians and Jews worldwide.
I usually disagree with what you have to say. But right on with that one. Nice post.
What has been described as "protecting" here would certainly be described as oppression by today's standards. Arabs treated Jews like 2nd or 3rd class citizens... and only occasionally massacred the Jews.
Usman, forget gratitude. When are the Arabs going to apologize for 1200 years of oppressing the Jews?
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Re: Oozie is putting up his us-ual propaganda....
Fri, September 29, 2006 - 12:09 AMWhat i can not understand.
Abraham, Isaac and jacob are saints/profits in both religions.
Why keep fussing and fighting?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibr%C4%81h%C4%ABm
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishaq
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaqub
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esau
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishmael
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binding_of_Isaac
About the background of the pope.
www.oeaw.ac.at/deutsch/ab...singer.html
www.uni-bonn.de/index_en.shtml
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonn...versity_of
Theodore_Khoury
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Khoury
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West...sit%C3%A4t
Khoury is notable for his efforts toward interfaith dialogue between Christianity and Islam.
Interesting a Greek translation of the Old Testament.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuagint
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustinians
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socrates
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judas_Thomas
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duns_Scotus
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duns
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntas_necandi
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Hazn
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3...a%2C_Spain
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andaluc%C3%ADa
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auto...s_in_Spain
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3...rovince%29
sola scriptura.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_scriptura
Kant:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kant
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blaise_Pascal
Bahá'í Faith
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%...3%AD_Faith
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%...7ll%C3%A1h
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mani...ion_of_God
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prog...revelation
university of regensburg
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Univ...Regensburg
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regensburg
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bavaria
Voluntarism
Voluntarism is a descriptive term for a school of thought which regards the will as superior to the intellect and to emotion.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntarism
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inte...28trait%29
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotion
reformation
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformation
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scho...c_theology
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_von_Harnack
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platonic
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positivism
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monod
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartesian_dualism
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%..._Descartes
Pluralism.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluralism
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_pluralism
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiculturalism
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenism
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methodology
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theology
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socrates
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phaedo
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phaedo_of_Elis
Then the conclusion:
“Not to act reasonably (with logos) is contrary to the nature of God”, said Manuel II, according to his Christian understanding of God, in response to his Persian interlocutor. It is to this great logos, to this breadth of reason, that we invite our partners in the dialogue of cultures. To rediscover it constantly is the great task of the university.
He is schemer
schemer - a planner who draws up a personal scheme of action
plotter
angler - a scheming person; someone who schemes to gain an advantage
contriver, deviser, planner - a person who makes plans
politician - a schemer who tries to gain advantage in an organization in sly or underhanded ways
Sly, cunning and roguish.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sly
cunning
1. Marked by or given to artful subtlety and deceptiveness.
2. Executed with or exhibiting ingenuity.
3. Delicately pleasing; pretty or cute: a cunning pet.
1. Skill in deception; guile.
2. Skill or adeptness in execution or performance; dexterity.
roguish
1. Deceitful; unprincipled: Set adrift by his roguish crew, the captain of the ship spent a week alone at sea.
2. Playfully mischievous: a roguish grin.
That is not reasonable of the pope that is unreasonable.
cunning
adj.
1. Marked by or given to artful subtlety and deceptiveness.
2. Executed with or exhibiting ingenuity.
3. Delicately pleasing; pretty or cute: a cunning pet.
Not so nice.
The pope fucked up.
Do not post long articles by him then.
He who fucks up.
Should shut up.
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Unsu...
Re: So what this evangelist idiot is peddling here:
Thu, September 28, 2006 - 5:17 PMoozman, the jewish population in arab lands has been reduced by 99.7% that change happened within the 50 generations. that is a fact. just how much gratitude should the jews show for that??
this is from wiki:
Jewish Populations of Arab Countries:.........1948.......................................2001
Aden........................................................ 8,000[2]................................... ~0
Algeria................................................. 140,000[2][3].................................~0
Egypt..................................................75,000[2]-80,000[3] .....................~100
Iraq....................................................135,000[2]-140,000[3]....................~200
Lebanon....................................................... 5,000[2]............................< 100
Libya........................................................35,000[3]-38,000[2].......................0
Morocco................................................ 250,000[3]-265,000[2].................5,230
Syria.........................................................15,000[3]-30,000[2]..................~100
Tunisia.................................................... 50,000[3]-105,000[2]...............~1,000
Yemen..................................................... 45,000[3]-55,000[2]..................~200
Total..........................................................758,000 - 866,000.................<6,500
the jews in arabs lands have been reduced to near extinction levels. now that is racial cleansing.
has oozman found an error in my use of the koran? if not then the conclusion is that islam was indeed spread by the sword.
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zionists won't show gratitude (period) & we don't expect it
Thu, September 28, 2006 - 8:02 PMIt takes a level of self-derogation to qualify as a Zionist.
While there are courageous Jews who are not afraid of facing the truth, we have our usual shabby set of Zionists who are going into their habitual hoopla & contortions to avoid reality.
But here's a promise:
Once Israel gets disbanded, we'll ensure that Arab Jews get repatriated to their homelands where they had been happy living for generations... -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.Unsu...
Re: zionists won't show gratitude (period) & we don't expect it
Thu, September 28, 2006 - 8:13 PMoozman <<But here's a promise:
Once Israel gets disbanded, we'll ensure that Arab Jews get repatriated to their homelands where they had been happy living for generations...>>
my question is: why did it happen in the first place? why was the arablands ethically cleansed of jews? what had those jews done that warranted this 'nakba'? even israel has a 20% arab population and you all call it an apartheid state!! and claim racial cleansing!!
why is israel with a 10 times increase in arab population racist and the arab populations with a 99.7% reduction in jewish population not racist?? are my facts wrong?? do i lie?? -
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Unsu...
Re: zionists won't show gratitude (period) & we don't expect it
Thu, September 28, 2006 - 9:05 PMHalla,
Yes you do lie, and you distort and you deny information every chance you can by dismissing the credibility of the author or reporter. You hold the people you hate accountable for certain events, but you don't hold Israel accountable for anything, and by doing that you only provide a one-sided version of events. You are continually inflexible, you approach things from a totally closed mind, and you deny yoursellf any credibility. I have yet to read a post from you where you acknowledged any perspective that was at all critical of Israel. You've said how the Palestinians have had an enviable economic situation (don't remember the exact words you used) in the Occupied Territories before they elected Hamas, or before the violence or something. You don't seem to want to know about the conditions in Gaza or the West Bank, which are awful. You simply hate Muslim people, and you find info to support it. If you had read Yusuf Ali as you said you had, you would have seen the differences in the various translations, and how dramatically meanings can be interpreted based on the perspective of the interpreter.
Listen, you don't care what anyone thinks, and you won't even consider, or show enough respect to anyone who doesn't share your views on Israel. Believe what you want, but you must realize that the people who you think are anti-semitic or anti-Israel don't support violence from either side and are simply presenting a balanced reality. Some people want peace, and believe it is achievable, but I don't think you do want peace as you're completely incapable of compromise or humility. So what's your point then? Why are you trying to convince anyone that the Israelis have done nothing wrong and that the Muslims are solely responsible? You try to give the impression that you don't care what anyone thinks, yet you are trying to make us think like you, and your thought process is one of denial, hate, sadness, and insanity. I'll pass, but thanks anyways. -
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Unsu...
Re: zionists won't show gratitude (period) & we don't expect it
Thu, September 28, 2006 - 10:15 PM<<You've said how the Palestinians have had an enviable economic situation (don't remember the exact words you used) in the Occupied Territories before they elected Hamas, or before the violence or something. You don't seem to want to know about the conditions in Gaza or the West Bank, which are awful.>>
that the living conditions are awful is one thing, that they are the result of willful behavior needs to be addressed. the present intifada was started by the palestinians. the resultance consequences belong to the palestinians. it seems you like the killing of the jews in terror attacks. why?? because you think the palestinians should not suffer any consequences for the terror events.
do you know before the terror clown arafat tens of thousands of palestinians worked in israel and supported a very large per cent of the palestinian people with a standard of living that was the envy of the surrounding arab peoples!!?? the palestinians gave that up in hopes of destroying israel.
<<Workers in Israel
Prior to the outbreak of the second intifada in 2000, 22 percent of employed Palestinians worked in Israel or in Israeli settlements.
.....
Israel has announced plans to decrease the overall number of foreign workers and to phase out all Palestinian work permits by the end of 2007. Present regulations require all workers to be older than thirty-five and married with children. The current political situation may accelerate this process. Due to heightened concerns of a terror attack during the Jewish holiday of Purim and the Israeli elections, no Palestinian workers have been allowed into Israel since March 11, and Mofaz indicates that this will continue until further notice. >>
so eric, because of the terror, there will soon be no palestinians working in israel.
http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:9KljaFyv85oJ:www.washingtoninstitute.org/templa...k&cd=37
the palestinians chose terror over employment in israel. if you have an argument with that then you must convince the israelis that they need to employ palestinians that go to work in israel and also kill in israel.
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another interesting development had to do with green houses bought for and given gratis to the palestinians in gaza when the settlers left. they were free! the palestinians destroyed them. did you know that thousands of palestinians were employed by the settlers when the settlers were in control of the greenhouses?? and that they made 5 dollars and hour when similar work by gazans in gaza paid 40 cents an hour??!!
Looters strip Gaza greenhouses - Mideast/N. Africa - MSNBC.comPalestinians looted dozens of greenhouses on Tuesday, walking off with irrigation hoses, water pumps and plastic sheeting in a blow to fledgling efforts to ...
www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9331863/ - 41k - Cached - Similar pages
http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:uyT4sGo1QYQJ:www.worldnetdaily.com/news/arti...=clnk&cd=1
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Re: zionists won't show gratitude (period) & we don't expect it
Fri, September 29, 2006 - 5:45 PM>> why was the arablands ethically cleansed of jews?
Good questin, halla. There were push and pull factors. Arab countries were wrong in turning against their own citizens.
But consider the pull factors. Zionists were not allowing European Jews to return to their homes in Europe. Instead, they shoved them to Israel.
Similarly, Zionists deliberately planted misinformation to widen distrust between Jews of Arab countries and their governments.
Baghdad's Jews were quite happy where they were, but some Mossad swine confess to planting bombs at their community centers to scare them and make them emigrate.
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israel is a client state
Fri, September 29, 2006 - 5:49 PMThe other things is that Israel is a cleitn state of the US. So cannot do what it pleases.
It just needs to keep using the Holocaust to guilt-trip the West for more guns & cash.
So it is unable to expel its Arabs residents. Treats them like shit though (which is something _you_ deserve!).
BTW, are you on unemployment or charity, halla?
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: zionists won't show gratitude (period) & we don't expect it
Fri, September 29, 2006 - 3:37 AM
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Re: Muhammad's Sword
Fri, September 29, 2006 - 4:34 AMGreat response Harmen! Perhaps you shoud post like that more often and stop with the wiki bullshit.
Hollah, what is your point? Okay, Islam was spread by the sword. The Koran says so. So what? So was Christianity and the Bible. In fact, maybe you should rephrase your ideology and simply state that religion is spread by the sword. And even so... who gives a fuck?
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