P lies about casualties made public - finally

topic posted Thu, April 2, 2009 - 8:19 AM by  ALLAH God of...
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Yah during their unprovoked war against Israel the Gazan military (HamAss) deliberately sacrificed people and planted them as casualties
Read it here dover.idf.il/IDF/English.../03/2602.htm
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  • the usual suspects will continue on with their "genocide" rhetoric

    • I know. I don't get it.
      I wish some one could make clear for me what is the appeal of Arab League propaganda.

      I remember being a stupid child and hearing the word "PLO" and the tone used to utter it sounded like whoever these PLO guys were they were mad bad and dangerous to know. So being a stupid child I started identifying with the PLO - and all the while I had not even a tiny clue who they were where they were or that there was even a place called the middle east.

      It was all about feeling rebellious.

      I got past that pretty soon though. However most of the today ( especially here on tribe) who are today parroting Arab League rhetoric are way older than I was. What is the appeal for them in all that crap?
      Why do they swallow it without question?
      Why is so appealing to them?
      • there is something that makes people root for the so called "underdog" or something like that

        Where was the outrage when Arafat stole millions for himself and his cronies while Palestinians suffered?

        Then you've got useful idiots like Galloway claiming that Hezbollah is not, nor has ever been a terrorist group. Gimme a break
        • *************Then you've got useful idiots like Galloway claiming that Hezbollah is not, nor has ever been a terrorist group. Gimme a break**********

          Hesbollah? They are just a few rowdy kids getting a little carried away.
          Didn't you get the memo?
  • Sorry Cliff and Brent.

    But those new numbers come from the Isreali military. I don't trust them at all.

    They're no more likely to tell the whole truth, than Hamas.

    The real numbers probably lie somewhere in the middle.
    • <<They're no more likely to tell the whole truth, than Hamas.

      The real numbers probably lie somewhere in the middle. >>


      I agree. The truth is usually somewhere in the middle of the two extremes.
      • "<<They're no more likely to tell the whole truth, than Hamas."

        Yes they are. They must suffer the checks and balances of a free society. Hamas? Not.
        • > Yes they are. They must suffer the checks and balances of a free society. Hamas? Not.

          Actually, I think the exact opposite might be true.

          A dictatorship has near total freedom to speak the truth. So long as they have the most guns, they're staying in power.

          But, if the IDF speaks the truth about killing lots of innocent babies, they're going to suffer the reprecussions of that.

          So, governmental agencies in free societies actually have more motivation to lie.
    • .
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      offline 39
      Adam, I pointed this out before - this invention of casualties is standard Palestinian propaganda.

      You will notice, when studying images released by Palestinian photographers numerous blatant deceits, such as the use of perfectly alive models to play dead people. Often times they are simply lying on top of rubble, vacant of any apparent injury, and you can even identify the same people being used in different shots.
      • salil:
        > Adam, I pointed this out before - this invention of casualties is standard Palestinian propaganda.

        I totally agree that the Palestinians are full of shit.

        I just don't believe that Israel is much, if at all, more honest.
        • .
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          offline 39
          Except that there is evidence behind the Israeli claims, they can match names, identify bodies, publish their methodology - sure, they could fake it, I just dont think they have to.
          • I didn't say that IDF figures were perfect. What human institution is. It is simply that they have a relatively free press, relatively balanced independent judiciary, relatively representative government. The fact that they may have an incentive to lie, is irrelevant. Do they? And, if they do, do they get away with it? It takes some sort of conspiracy to "fake" things. In free societies, conspiracies tend to be exposed, wereas in un-free societies, they tend to be propagated. I mean, Ollie North and two other guys couldn't pull it off. Exceptions to every rule, of course. I think that your blanket statement that the difference is "somewhere in the middle" is wrong. It is probably somewhere in between, and I think closer to the Israeli numbers than those of Hamas.
            • And, by the way, this was reported on a couple of months ago. It was in Italian, and the Israeli papers picked up on it, but the mainstream Western press pretty much ignored it. This tends to support, at least to some extent, the recent IDF conclusions:

              Physician at Gaza’s Shifa Hospital tells Italian newspaper number of dead in Israeli offensive ’stands at no more than 500 or 600, most of them youths recruited to Hamas’ ranks’
              Nir Magal
              Latest Update: 01.22.09, 15:18 / Israel News

              What really is behind the numbers reported on the number of civilian casualties in the Gaza Strip? Italian newspaper Corriere Della Sera reported Thursday that a doctor working in Gaza’s Shifa Hospital claimed that Hamas has intentionally inflated the number of casualties resulting from Israel’s Operation Cast Lead.

              “The number of deceased stands at no more than 500 to 600. Most of them are youths between the ages of 17 to 23 who were recruited to the ranks of Hamas, who sent them to the slaughter,” according to the newspaper article.

              The doctor wished to remain unidentified, out of fear for his life.

              A senior Palestinian Health Ministry official later denied the claims, and the IDF estimate on the number of casualties in Gaza has also remained unchanged.

              A Tal al-Hawa resident told the newspaper’s reporter, “Armed Hamas men sought out a good position for provoking the Israelis. There were mostly teenagers, aged 16 or 17, and armed. They couldn’t do a thing against a tank or a jet. They knew they are much weaker, but they fired at our houses so that they could blame Israel for war crimes.”

              The reporter for the Italian newspaper also quoted reporters in the Strip who told of Hamas’ exaggerated figures, “We have already said to Hamas commanders – why do you insist on inflating the number of victims?”

              These same reporters mentioned that the truth that will come out is likely to be similar to what occurred in Operation Defensive Shield in Jenin. “Then, there was first talk of 1,500 deaths. But then it turned out that there were only 54, 45 of which were armed men,” the Palestinian reporters told the Italian newspaper.

              These new figures must be treated with caution especially in light of the fact that various official sources in the Gaza Strip, including United Nations and Red Cross officials, have reported that more than 1,300 people were killed and some 5,000 wounded during the three weeks of fighting in the coastal strip. Palestinian sources claim that three-quarters of the dead were unarmed civilians.
              • And:

                Reservists ask Mazuz to probe 'Haaretz'
                Apr. 7, 2009
                Yaakov Katz , THE JERUSALEM POST

                IDF reservists have asked Attorney-General Menahem Mazuz to launch a criminal investigation against Haaretz for publishing "testimonies" by soldiers of alleged misconduct and serious human rights violations during Operation Cast Lead in the Gaza Strip earlier this year.

                The "testimonies" were reported widely in the media. Last week, Judge Advocate General Brig.-Gen. Avichai Mandelblit exonerated the IDF and decided to close a Military Police investigation into the accounts, claiming that they were based on rumors.

                The letter, signed by 65 reservists who served in Operation Cast Lead, sent the letter to Mazuz on Monday and asked that he launch an investigation against Haaretz on charges of slander for reporting on the testimonies as if they were fact and not hearsay.

                "It appears to us that Haaretz did not do the minimum of checking before reporting false accusations," the letter read.

                "We are fed up with being called murderers and war criminals," said Amit Barak, who initiated the letter. "We will not tolerate being treated this way after as reservists we contribute to the state and come to serve in the IDF. We expect the state to stand up for us, its soldiers."

                Barak said that some reservists were considering requesting that an investigation also be launched against head of the Rabin Pre-Military Academy Danny Zamir, who they claimed was instrumental in promoting the false accusations by leaking them to the press.
                This article can also be read at www.jpost.com /servlet/Satellite?cid=1238562926517&pagename=JPArticle%2FShowFull
            • .
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              offline 39
              Uh, Erik, I never said anything about thinking the IDF has a reason to lie about this, so why are you responding to me about that? I'm saying the IDF's numbers are probably the most accurate.
              • And, I never claimed you did. Perhaps I wasn't responding to you?
                • .
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                  offline 39
                  Oh, ok, well, the threading seems to imply that you were directing that response at me
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Well you are, once again, wrong.
                    • .
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                      offline 39
                      Well no, I am in fact not wrong, as the threading does in fact imply that you were replying to me. Look at it yourself. You did choose to reply to my post, rather than the one you meant to reply to, which indented your response below mine.

                      So once again, you think I'm wrong, when in fact all the evidence and data points to the contrary.

                      quit embarassing yourself.
                      • Not my problem if tribe has a glitch that sometimes mis-threads. And, yes, I know for a fact that you are wrong. If you choose to believe otherwise, based upon whatever evidence you wish, that is your problem. Of course, that would make you wrong, again.

                        There you go again, trying to instruct and belittle others. Further supporting my preliminary diagnosis.
                        • .
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                          offline 39
                          No, I'm not wrong. I said the threading implies something, and the threading most certianly does imply it, glitch or not.

                          Therefore you are wrong, yet again, and your hypocrisy stands out loud and clear for everyone to see.

                          LOL away, nitro.
                          • "Uh, Erik, I never said anything about thinking the IDF has a reason to lie about this, so why are you responding to me about that?"

                            Your words. I was not. You assumed I was, later qualifying your reasons for assuming so. Which, of course, was irrelevant. Your original assumption was WRONG. Hence, you were WRONG. Back at ya.

                            Again, trying to belittle others. Diagnosis further supported. You know, even generals are now seeking psychological help. No shame in it.
                            • .
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                              offline 39

                              Re: P lies about casualties made public - finally

                              Sat, April 11, 2009 - 11:51 AM
                              I did not *assume* anything, Erik. TRIBE CLEARLY shows that you were responding to me. In fact, all evidence shows that while the subject matter of your response was not directed to me, you in fact clicked on the "reply to this post" button beneath my post.

                              So as far as tribe is concerned, you were replying to me. Your mistake was threading your response below my post. That's *your* mistake, not mine.


                              And once again, your cute little attempts at Psychology are about as accurate as a 10 year old trying to diagnose a kidney stone over the internet. You havent got a clue. What is clear though, and I say this actually having an understanding of the field, is that your self delusional tendencies are becoming more apparent weekly.
                              • Re: P lies about casualties made public - finally

                                Sat, April 11, 2009 - 11:54 AM
                                I'll take that as a no.
                                • .
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                                  offline 39

                                  Re: P lies about casualties made public - finally

                                  Sat, April 11, 2009 - 12:03 PM
                                  Take it as whatever, you're jsut trying to distract from your overwhelming wrongness.

                                  Have you been in combat? I mean real combat, have you been shot at, up close and personal with bullets twittering by your head? No, of course not, Navy officers push buttons and make things miles away go boom.

                                  Anyway, I didn't assume anything, you did technically "reply to" my post, and for some reason you're hung up about admitting your error.

                                  You ever quit beating your boyfriend?
                                  • Re: P lies about casualties made public - finally

                                    Sat, April 11, 2009 - 12:22 PM
                                    Hmmm. Simple question. Reply, based upon suppositions.

                                    Hey, Adam, ya gonna tell him to play nice? You know, I'm really trying here. Salil keeps going on about his military experience, and how that impacts upon his ability to reason with respect to various subjects. Isn't my question relevant? Of course, having been actually shot at might have nothing to do with your perspective.

                                    Homophobic too?


                                    • .
                                      .
                                      offline 39
                                      You're not trying anything, except to be deliberately obtuse and deceptive in order to distract from what is clear to anyone who reads this thread - you replied to me, and then you stamped your foot and refused to admit it.

                                      None of this has to do with the subject at hand.

                                      I was given a eprfectly good reason to think you were responding to me, but it didnt make sense, so I asked a question. You then pretended tribe was responsible for 'glitching' the threading, and then tried to make a point about me being wrong, which, again, I was not.

                                      Then you bring up this "combat" nonsense - and then make up some sort of nonsense about me going on about by military experience and how that impacts my ability to reason.

                                      1) I don't go on about my military experience, in fact, I limit discussion of my military experience to specific relevant topics regarding the theoretical application of COIN, CT, etc.
                                      2) At no point have I ever said military experience helps you reason
                                      3) You don't know what being shot as does to one's perspective, because you've never been shot at, nor do the tactical concerns of combat ever matter in these discussions

                                      Homophobic? What on earth gives you that idea? Not homophobic at all. I was pointing out the ludicrous nature of your question by asking you one.

                                      But keep derailing this thread and this tribe, I'm sure Adam loves it!

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